Venn diagrams

[missroserose]

How I found the queer Christian experience in Good Omens

Aziraphale’s position looks very familiar to those of us clinging to non-affirming churches. He represses and is reluctant to act upon desires that he believes to be inconsistent with his identity as one of the ‘good ones’ {...} But he wants to think the best of a heaven that doesn’t really understand or accept him, because surely, by definition, they are in the right? He wants to keep his hands clean and fit in, he can’t allow himself to whole-heartedly pursue a relationship he feels is forbidden to him {...} Crowley’s story, on the other hand, speaks to those of us who fall away from the church entirely — he falls not so much out of wanting to, but because it was the only way to be honestly himself. Forced out of a heaven that didn’t like him questioning things, he ends up hanging out with the crowd hostile towards it simply by default, and is expected to agree that nothing he left behind was worth keeping. {...} And yet he still feels a profound connection to his pre-Fall past...

It’s been a long time since I identified as Christian, but this speaks strongly to my experience in large groups/organizations. I tend to carefully think through assumptions and rules and ethics, which makes me a bad candidate to join any group, because I’m unlikely to just sit and accept whatever tenets create the group identity (whether explicit or implicit)—I’m the one who always pokes at things and asks uncomfortable questions.

It's a useful skill, but it makes me feel more than a little guilty sometimes, because people tend to be quite welcoming in these groups, and I always feel like I’m accepting their hospitality under false pretenses—like, hi, my name is Ambrosia and I’m almost certainly going to openly disagree with you at some point, I hope it doesn’t end up being over something that means we can’t be friends anymore?

And when I do leave a group, especially one that’s been a big part of my life, I still carry a huge chunk of their values with me. Often, I miss the sense of clarity and purpose that membership in that group brings.

I wonder if this is something everyone goes through.

Comments

[rebeccmeister]

I can certainly relate, and I do believe there's a lot of social psychology research on individual behavior vs. group dynamics/group behavior suggesting there's an inherent tension present pretty much any time there's any sort of group organizing involved.

It's always annoying when people make false assumptions based on group identity.

[missroserose]

Yeah. I suspect it's one of the fundamental tensions of being human—we can accomplish so much more when we cooperate, so of course we're going to have that innate desire to want to be part of something larger than ourselves. But at heart we're still individuals, and the more people are part of any given group, the more compromises are going to be involved to keep that group functioning.

I admit that fear of people making those assumptions is a big part of my hesitancy to join a lot of groups. I strongly dislike people assuming things about me, and most groups have at least one or two aspects I really don't want people associating with me. Which is kind of silly, now that I articulate it—people are going to make assumptions no matter what I do, and one of my great joys in life is seeing people's faces when I do or say something that upends those assumptions.

[asakiyume]

because people tend to be quite welcoming in these groups, and I always feel like I’m accepting their hospitality under false pretenses --I felt a little that way when I let myself be befriended by Jehovah's Witnesses in Japan. I wanted to say to them, I love talking with you about this stuff, but you are never, ever going to change my mind ... so are you okay with that? We had some fun times before their higher-ups told them I was a hopeless case and they should move on.

[missroserose]

That feels genuinely sad. Like, why should your relationship have been based on whether or not they could convert you to their cause? Surely it's worth knowing people to know them and experience the world a little through their eyes. But I guess when your group highly values conformity and recruitment, any time spent with people unlikely to be recruited and conform is seen as a waste.

[asakiyume]

My memories are so jumbled, it's hard for me to get the chronology right. It had been a mother, her teen daughter, and her littler daughter who had been visiting me. The little daughter was about the same age as my oldest at that time, and it was fun for all of us, quite genuinely. I remember the higher-ups visiting, and I remember the message (not in the sense of a physical message, but in the sense of getting the drift of something) about this being a waste of time, but I am not entirely sure the mom and daughters immediately stopped coming. But things did trail off. And then my kids went to daycare and I started working, and it all became moot anyway.